Joshua Ackley of Queercore Band The Dead Betties Looks Back On the Ups and Downs of the Band’s Career

It was back in late October when we sat down with The Dead Betties’ frontman Joshua Ackley. The world seemed like a different place back then. With just a few weeks to go until the election, we still lived in hope that the months to come wouldn’t see us enter a second Trump presidency. Similarly, the queercore punk band was in a somewhat different place back then, supporting their then-new album Impossible Futures. Since then, they’ve put out the politically relevant, anti-right wing, pro-queer anthem “Evolution Blues,” and today, they’re putting out their latest single, “Coffins,” a commentary on social media and the ultra-connected modern age.

In many ways, I was in a different place in my life back in October, as well. For one thing, every queer person’s life changed on November 5 when it became apparent that a hostile force would once again control the American government. But I still had yet to realize how much was about to change in the event of a Trump presidency. During the interview I said, half-jokingly, that the reason I refused to delete my Twitter account was because the feminist punk icon Kathleen Hanna followed me on Twitter, and I wasn’t ready to stop bragging about that. Since then, I’ve deleted my Twitter account and have been limiting my use of Meta platforms, not wanting to be complicit in my own oppression.

The delay of four months between the interview and its publication is a much longer gap than I usually like to have, but life got in the way over and over again. Yet, while it’s a different world for all of us, Ackley’s discussion of why his band refuses to engage in social media perfectly reflects the new single they’re releasing today. And so, we present the interview in its entirety, but with the understanding that this is a conversation between two people who still saw a Trump 2.0 presidency as a scary possibility and not a terrifying reality.

I have a lot of things I want to talk about, but let’s start with your new album, Impossible Future. This is the first album you’ve put out in a while. Is that right?

That is correct.

I’ve been listening to it. I really like it. What is it about this record that kind of stands out from the rest of your catalog?

Well, thank you so much, I’m glad you like it. We were aiming to go a little more, I don’t want to say positive, but tying the personal to the political, whereas I think, in the past, we went straight for preachy, political, social issue messages in our music. We were a lot angrier back in the day as a band. So I think this album was our chance to redirect a little bit. I mean, there’s still a lot to be angry about in the world, but you can have a good time at the same time,

If I understand correctly, first you released the title track as a single, but then the second one was a cover. Is that right?

Yeah, so the first track, the single, “Impossible Future,” was the first out of the gate. Then the second single was “Blood” by Babes in Toyland. And it was important for us to put “Blood” on this record because Babes in Toyland were so foundational to all three of us when we all started playing together. They were one of the bands that we really agreed on. We love their intensity and how underrated they are. And, so, we will do whatever we can to give credit to Babes in Toyland because they are a true gem.

From what I understand, this is his first album you’ve put out in a while, but about a year or so ag,o you were talking about an album called Sweetheart. You put out at least a single. Whatever happened to that?

Sweetheart was a very personally shocking experience. We actually had a label lined up. We had management lined up. We had every vehicle you need to release an album, unless you’re self-releasing. And when we submitted the record, it lost us our label and our management. So people really were a solid force, and that record was a no, and I think we were caught off guard. It took us a good year and a half to really regroup. That’s never happened to us before. And maybe it was a good lesson for us to learn at this stage. We either had the choice to throw in the towel or to take a good look in the mirror and see maybe if we needed to adjust the formula a little bit, and that’s what we did with Impossible Future.

That’s really strange. Was there objectionable material, or was it just they didn’t like it?

We made, a very, very brutal, dark, angry, aggressive record. And I think in the times that we’re in as a culture, it might have been too much. I think just releasing just such a negative orb of art into the world, the timing was probably not right. People are already extremely angry right now. It feels very dark; it feels very heavy. So I think we maybe played into that a little bit too much. Maybe people don’t want to be screamed at right now, frankly.

So for Impossible Future, did you try and go in the opposite direction entirely, or was there anything from that you kept?

The track “Impossible Future,” clearly, is a lot shinier than we usually go for, and I like that. That’s actually something I’ve been wanting to do for a long time. I love bright, ’70s-style rock music. I think it’s really where my heart lies, ’70s rock and ’70s disco. But on the album, you do get some old-school, Dead Betties tracks, for sure. “Computer Lover: is right in our wheelhouse. You’re not a good artist or musician if you keep just relying on your formula that worked in the past. We’re really happy, and, in hindsight, it’s probably good that Sweetheart was not received at all because now we’re back on a label. We’re working on our next record, and it’s really opened the door for us to revisit the way we sound and make better records.

One thing I always like to do when I’m preparing for an interview is go through bands social media and web press and look at what I can learn there. I have never had this much trouble before with anyone. You have a Facebook page that’s rarely updated*. There’s a Twitter account with no posts. I don’t even know if you’ve made that.

Nope, we did not make that.

And you have a Bandcamp page with two singles on it. What do you have against creating a web presence for this band?

Thank you for this question. I think it was Kathleen Hanna who said it best: “Get off the internet; destroy the right wing.” We, very early on, made a decision not to be a band that was heavily marketed online. That could someday change, but I’m really happy to have stayed strong in that. It hasn’t cost us much. We do get a lot of people who won’t work with us because we don’t have a web presence, and that’s fine. But I really think that social media has made it so cheap to be an artist. I think it’s really diminished a musician’s capacity to be taken seriously sometimes because all people do now is make content. It’s just content, and the attention span is not there for someone to absorb true art and true music. So, for us, we stick with the traditions. Right now, we’re running a radio campaign. “Impossible Future” is actually starting to chart, which is really nice to see, because you still can do it the traditional way, and that’s really where our heads (are) at. I mean, it might change next year when we release our next album, who knows? But we’re pretty happy to not have a social media presence. I really, really loathe social media.

It’s funny that you start that out with that quote from Kathleen Hanna, which I just think is ironic because I realize I should get off Twitter because Elon Musk is absolutely terrible, but the thing I have always said is, I cannot delete my Twitter because Kathleen Hanna follows me on Twitter, and I’m not willing to stop saying that.

I have an Instagram, so everyone is guilty. I do engage on a personal level with social media, and I limit it. I like to see where my friends are traveling. I like to see weird food. I’m pretty bland on social media. But when it comes to being a band who is kind of TikTok famous, or Instagram famous, or whatever famous you are online, it doesn’t interest me at all. I’m really turned off by a lot of performers who are these flash-in-the-pan, social media performers. I don’t really respect them as artists or songwriters.

I don’t know if you get tired of answering questions about the whole Bill O’Reilly/Breitbart incident from 10 years ago where O’Reilly said it was inappropriate for you, as a gay man and a performer in this band, to be a spokesperson for the Girl Scouts of America. But you did mention it in the email you sent us. So let’s talk about that.

I used to really not be willing to even talk about it because I do value keeping my head down and doing work. Making successful art and being a successful person, I think that’s probably the best revenge that you can ever have on bullies. But we’ve just come to this weird place in our culture, in America, where the bullies are now the victims. And, so, I do think it’s important to look back and remember where cancel culture truly started. Conservatives have always been trying to cancel anything that’s not in their worldview. It’s a really interesting gaslighting manipulation that we’re seeing happen right now, with all of these people claiming that they’re being canceled because they can’t live the lives they want, because the woke left is canceling them, when, in fact, no, you just have to be held accountable for the stupid stuff that you say and the rotten way that you live your life. But looking back, I’m someone who did absolutely nothing wrong and was dragged through the mud for being a gay person with a high-level job, and that that is entirely why that happened.

It just kind of boggles my mind. As recently as 10 years ago, the biggest news channel in America—as much as they love to call everyone else the mainstream media, Fox News is the number-one news channel in America—They can go on there and say, “Is it appropriate for a gay man to be a spokesman for the Girl Scouts of America?” And they made some mention of your music videos and stuff like that, but they didn’t hide the fact that the problem was that you were gay. And that they can say that on a mainstream platform that recently is still just kind of shocking to me.

Sadly, I have to say it wasn’t shocking to me at the time because I grew up in a very rural Mormon oil and coal town, and so I know firsthand what true community-level bullying looks like. So, it wasn’t shocking to me because that is where I come from; that’s how I was raised. I was never in the closet, so there was never any ambiguity. It was just open season. It wasn’t shocking. I was receiving so many death threats, which was wild. And then, also, kids at Sunday school would be told to cut pictures of Jesus (out) and put them in envelopes and send them to me and say strange prayers for my soul. I would just open these envelopes at work and be like, “Wow, here’s 100 pictures of Jesus (with a) prayer written on the back. Holy cow.” I still have some of those because I was so struck by the level at which people take this seriously. It’s so deeply ingrained, and I’m quite literally, at the time, in a high rise in Manhattan, minding my own business, and here come the envelopes full of Jesus.

Wow, that is a weird almost-threat.

And then there were also true death threats, the truly scary ones where you’re like, “Oh, wow. I guess it’s easy to find someone’s address online.” That’s crazy.

Yeah, I’ve learned that myself, I have to admit.

I’m sorry for that experience for you. That’s terrible.

So, what was the actual outcome of that? Because Breitbart reported that you had been removed from the position, but I don’t trust Breitbart on that.

No, I can say that Girl Scouts of the USA is a solid organization. They did the right thing. They recognized good work. And I was eventually promoted, and then ended on a high as the Senior Vice President of Communications there before I moved on. So, solid organization; they did the right thing. I really did just keep my head down and tried to do the best job possible because the worst thing that could have come of that is the bullies winning and my life being ruined because of it. And what example does that send to younger gay people at the time? So my number-one job was to actually succeed there.

Something else you mentioned to us in your email, you’ve had experiences with neo Nazis barring you from venues. Was that related to that incident, or was that a separate thing?

No, that was actually one of the first tours we went on, and that was a very frightening day. We were driving from Los Angeles, and we were going to play a show in Bakersfield, and when we got to the venue, we noticed that there was this group of men at the door, just standing there. And we were, of course, a little intimidated, but I was like, “Let’s act like nothing’s up.” I don’t know who these people are. Maybe it’s just people who work at the club. But they were pretty intimidating, and the closer we got, the more we saw arm band swastikas. And we realized, “Oh, wow, we’re not getting in this venue. They are not going to let us in.” Then it started to devolve into threatening language, all of that. We just got back in the car because we were like, “Nope, we are not safe here. Absolutely not. We’ve gotta leave.” So we did not play that show; we didn’t get to. And we called the venue; we emailed the venue, and they never responded. It was very unfortunate, actually, because I think at the time I was maybe 23.

Was that something that you ran into on a regular basis or was it a one-time thing?

We’ve been messed with a pretty good amount the 2000s. I don’t think people remember exactly how conservative America was in the 2000s. There was a lot against us. Not only were we barred from playing a few shows, for sure, that did happen. The fact that we eventually signed to Warner was a major coup, because we could not get labels to talk to us. People were not looking for angry gay people in a band at that time. If you think about it, you had electroclash, you had the Scissor Sisters, so there was this very (specific) style of appropriate gay person that the industry was willing to accept. Outside of that, there really wasn’t much visibility. Le Tigre was the name of the game at the time. But if you think about it, the head singerof Bloc Party was still in the closet. And I always wonder if that was actually his choice or if that was a label choice. Who knows? I don’t know much about it. But there weren’t that many really famous openly gay musicians specifically making music in the style of The Dead Betties, which is aggressive.

Yeah. I mean, there was the whole queercore thing before you, but it wasn’t as it wasn’t as angry as what you were doing. Pansy Division blew up and became the big thing in the 90s, but they’re also funny more than anything.

Yeah, we couldn’t really play with bands like that. This isn’t a dig on them at all, but we were so loud. Back in those days, we were extremely loud, so we fit in more with metal lineups. And that was always an interesting combination because people would see us and be like, “Oh my god, this is going to be so lame. These gay people do not know how to play their instruments.” But then they would hear us and be like, “Oh, wow. OK, I take that back.” I always liked that there was a really fun element of surprise with The Dead Betties, specifically when we were on tour, because we would get billed with heavy metal bands, and those guys did not like us before our show, and then after our set, it would be a sea change. I really appreciated that. I more enjoyed playing in those spaces, because it’s an unfriendly audience, and you get to change people’s minds.

What was that experience, signing with Warner Music in the in the mid 2000s? Because that was, was a big deal for the time.

We had a bad experience. The industry at large was in such a tectonic shift that our first album on Warner, Nightmare Sequence, the week of that release, our entire A&R team was fired. So we were in a state of complete bliss, and then in a state of complete shock, because on its release, Nightmare Sequence was a success, and we were really proud of it. We were really happy with the reception it got, and then to turn around and have everyone we trusted at the label to no longer be there and then be replaced with people who would never have signed us was very, very hard to navigate. It really stalled our momentum as a band. And that’s the kind of stuff that can happen in a label that big when they don’t care. And then it’s a lot of industry people who aren’t there to actually nurture artists; they’re just there to chase trends and to sell. I’m still very proud of it, I have to say. It’s just that navigating that industry in that decade as a queer person was incredibly difficult, and I’m such a strong fighter because of that experience.

OK, you’ve brought up Kathleen Hanna a few times, and I wanted to talk about her. You have worked with her before, is that correct?

That is correct.

How did that come about?

I’m really good friends—It’s unfair to say friends, we’re more like family—with Tami Hart. Tami released those two incredibly blockbuster albums on Mr. Lady. She’s actually about to release another album next year. It’s going to be pretty massive; I’m excited for it. But Tami is very close with Kathleen, and Kathleen was looking for people who have who have chops when it comes to engineering because she was looking for people to go through all of her archival tapes and to help engineer them and help sort out the mixes, etc, for all of Le Tigre’s live performances. And so that was such a dream. I was actually in her studio going through all of her tapes, going through all of the soundboard recordings, and then the project was finished. And she is a wonderful person, so we’ve remained friendly, and it was nice getting to hang out with her. It was nice getting to hang out with her socially as well. She’s a very positive, lovely human being.

Wow. I I’m a huge Le Tigre fan. Not as big on Bikini Kill, but I’ve always been such a huge fan of Le Tigre. That sounds like such a great job.

It was pretty cool. Thank you. That was dope.

I always like to kind of finish up by asking, like, what’s next for the band? Do you have any plans in the immediate future now that you put out the album few weeks ago?

We’re now in heavy promotion on radio, which I adore. It’s one of my favorite things. But right now, we are actually recording the demo for our next album, and it’s going to be probably our best album. It will be our best album, and it will come out next year, aiming for a double album, high concept, going back to the days of 70’s arena jock jams with a kind of saccharin twist, a little sinister thrown in there. Yeah, we’re excited, and it’s great to actually be a functioning band again. Stay tuned.

Is there anything else you wanted to bring up that I didn’t mention?

If you’re out there and you see that The Dead Betties are playing live, come see us. We are the best live band in the world.

*In the time since this interview was conducted, the Facebook page has since disappeared.

“Coffins” is now streaming on all major platforms. Keep up with The Dead Betties at their website.

Photo credit: Jazzmine Beaulieu